ROUGHLY EDITED COPY CUENet AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION DOGMATICS 2 LESSON 51 Captioning Provided By: Caption First, Inc. 10 E. 22nd Street Suite 304 Lombard, IL 60148 800-825-5234 *** This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. *** >> I've got another question about the differences between the Reformed and Lutherans. Do the Reformed think of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same way we do? >> DR. DAVID SCAER: David, we spoke to this question before. But it has to be elucidated further. We mentioned before that so far as Jesus is concerned, the Reformed do not believe that there's a communication of the human and the divine natures of Jesus. What this means is that the man, Jesus, virtually exists as an autonomous person. Now, this might not be obvious when we use theological language to explain this. But it does become evident when you go into Reformed churches. Very infrequently do they have crucifixes in there. Very infrequently do they have pictures of the exaltation of Jesus. Jesus is seen simply as an ordinary man. Jesus as a man is really inferior to God and to the divine nature which he possesses in himself. And these are really serious differences. When it comes to the doctrine of the atonement, the Lutherans look upon the value of the atonement in the person of Jesus. Jesus as God can offer himself up as a sacrifice for all people because that sacrifice has infinite worth. In Reformed theology, there's a slightly different emphasis. And that is the value of the atonement rests in the Father who accepts Jesus' death as if it were a complete atonement. And they also have a different viewpoint about the Holy Spirit. Beginning with Swingley and maybe less so with Calvin, the two great theologians and reformers of the Reformed tradition, the Reformed religion can be described as a religion of the Holy Spirit rather than the religion of Jesus. And they admit this themselves. This is not something which we're saying that they wouldn't say of themselves. And they have a -- they have a more active, a more thorough doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Because Jesus himself does not have the divine attributes. The human nature does not possess the divine attributes. In order to fill up this gap or this lacuna, the Holy Spirit carries out the activities that we Lutherans ordinarily attribute to Jesus. And this gives them a -- this opens a wider horizon for them. Because Lutherans would have a difficult time even discussing whether a person who did not know Jesus could be saved. I mean, we should certainly handle the question and address it as best we can. But since the Holy Spirit is not necessarily attached to Jesus but rather attached to God directly, the Holy Spirit can go and work in places other than the Christian church. And Swingley, who was really the most prominent and the first of the Reformed theologians, he suggested that many of the Greek philosophers and Roman philosophers, Seneca and Pluto, were actually in heaven. He got himself in kind of a difficulty. Because he said that even Hercules was in heaven. The problem with that is Hercules is a mythological figure and never existed. So there are really some fundamental differences for Lutherans. The Holy Spirit works through the sacraments. And for the Reformed, that's not so at all. Therefore, when you go to one of these rallies when decisions are made for Christ, the Holy Spirit comes directly upon the individual. And also when we speak of the Holy Spirit, we necessarily say that he comes from Jesus. We discuss this already in connection with the differences between the Lutheran and the Catholic church on one side and the Eastern church on the other side. The Eastern church can understand the spirit being sent directly from God into the world as if he -- almost as if he were a world spirit. The spirit works in culture and among nations and in politics. That's very difficult -- that would be a very difficult concept for Lutherans who see the Holy Spirit necessarily limited and confined by the person of Jesus. And to make reference to that Bible passage again, Jesus says, "I will send you the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father. And he will take the things of mine and give them to you." The Holy Spirit doesn't go directly to the Father and give us the things of the Father. But it gives us the things of the Son which the Son possesses from the Father. That's a very significant question. And you're going to find this -- this is going to be demonstrated in your own experience as you get to meet ministers of other Christian denominations in your neighborhood. *** This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. ***