No. 28. >> Thanks for allowing that little question. I appreciate you taking the time. Now, to a larger one that also relates to science, I've always wondered what Paul means in Romans Chapter 8 Verses 18 through 22 when he talks about creation itself waiting in eager expectation. And even groaning as if in childbirth. These words offer a vivid image. But what is Paul talking about? >>PROFESSOR DAVID I. M. LEWIS: Well, Nick, thank you for that question. And I'm not really surprised that someone with a background of teaching in science might focus upon this very unique part of Romans 8 where Paul presents images that might seem kind of surprising to a lot of people who may think about salvation as simply involving humanity. And humanity on a one-on-one basis and to forget about our relationship to the wider cosmos to God's creation as a whole. Because here suddenly Paul's discussion of salvation gets cosmic. Well, this shouldn't surprise us. John 3:16 says God so loved the world, the word there is cosmos, that he gave his only Son. Well, some people say cosmos there, world, simply refers to the people. But I think that the apostle John and the apostle Paul would be on the same page by saying that cosmos actually is referring to creation itself. Well, let's look at those verses you cited, Romans 8:8 through 22. Paul writes: For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, that because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom and the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Not only the creation but we, ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit groan inwardly as we await eagerly our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now, hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. Yeah, this is very vivid language, creation yearning, groaning in childbirth awaiting for the revelation of the sons of light. So here Paul I think amplifies a motif a teaching he actually introduced back in Romans Chapter 5. Remember that's where he compares and contrasts Adam and Jesus. Remember that through Adam's one act of disobedience, all of humanity was subjected to sin, death and condemnation? Well, here we find out that creation was subjected to sin and death. And probably this is in relation to Adam's act of disobedience. That it was not just humanity that fell but that this fall had an effect upon everything that God created. You might recall the story of creation. Genesis Chapter 1 God says six times about what he made. That it was good. That it was good. That it was good. That it was good. That it was good. That it was good. And finally one seventh time he saw everything that he had made and that it was very good. But God's very good creation was upset by the disobedience of Adam and Eve. So here we see that creation was subjected to sin and death. Creation was subjected to futility. And that this is the present state of affairs in this fallen world now. And that's why creation yearns for the consummation. Creation itself is yearning for the revelation of the sons of light. And then the promise is is that creation will be set free from bondage of decay. And so here we see sort of a little bit of John 3:16. That Jesus' death was not just to redeem humanity. Although, indeed, the focus was to redeem us fallen creatures of God. But creation itself is redeemed. So in the same way that in Adam's sin all of creation fell and is now subject to futility, to decay, so also, in Jesus Christ creation itself has the promise of being redeemed from this futility. And now this gets us to speak eschatologically. And here we begin to move our focus from the new Spirit filled life that we have today to the hope of the resurrection of the body. And here Paul brings in the motif of hope. What is hope? Well, hope is a confidence in something that has not yet happened. I talked to my son last night. You may not know this but I'm away filming this class. And my son said he could not wait to see me Monday night when I return to my home. I'm away from him now. And he said: Dad, are you really going to come back Monday? And I said: Son, I will. And he has that hope, that sure confidence that he will see his dad then. And that's what hope is as Paul explains. It's not -- you're not hoping for something you see. You're hoping for something that's going to come. And so we have this hope for the resurrection of our bodies. We're not there in that resurrected body yet. But we've got the promise of God. So we live with this sure and certain confidence how the story for us ends. That it's going to end with our bodies being resurrected and glorified on the last day. And now Paul is speaking cosmic terms that creation itself was subjected to sin, death and decay because of Adam's rebellion. But now because of Jesus' one act of obedience, creation itself will be set free from that bondage. And so this is the hope that we have. Not just the resurrection of our bodies. But the renewal of God's good creation that was subjected to decay because of the sin of Adam. And I think this then allows us to think -- I think, Nick, you would agree that we as Christians ought to think more about the first article of the Apostle's Creed: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. And that creation is not insignificant. It's not like only we matter. We certainly do matter. We were created in God's image. And God sent his son to redeem us. But God's goal in redeeming us is actually to renew all of his creation. And this eschatological hope that we have is that we will live in resurrected bodies in a new heaven and a new earth. God's creation renewed and made perfect and set free from bondage to death and decay. Fransman in his commentary says about these verses that we stand before the unutterable. No one in the New Testament really attempts to explain what the new world will be like. And all Paul does here is sort of hint at it. But what a glorious hinting. He's pointing us to that eschatological hope where we see the resurrection of our bodies and the renewal of creation itself. And yeah, I can understand then why your interest in science would cause you to focus upon this right here. I would like to mention a discussion I had actually with a Congregationalist, a man who is a Congregationalist, a parishioner in a congregational church near where I live about the topic of evolution. And now we were first discussing the theory of evolution as a theory of origin. And this man is a biology teacher. An he believes in evolution as a theory of the origins of life. And I said well, because of what I believe about Genesis, I don't believe in macro evolution. Evolution as a theory about the origins of life. Then we talked about micro evolution. Micro evolution as you know, Nick, is simply that teaching that life undergoes change. And not necessarily that we all, you know, originated from this evolutionary process. But that life as we see it today undergoes change. And that death is very much an important part of the cycle of life. And here this man really showed how even though he believed in evolution, his Christian faith came out because he sighed. And I almost thought about Romans 8: Creation sighing. He sighed a deep breath and he said: I wish that this would stop. He was thinking about animals that are in danger of going extinct. And then he said he was also thinking about his mother who passed away. And he said: I just wish this death would stop. And then I made mention of Romans 8, that you're not alone. Creation itself is wishing that this cycle of death and decay would stop. And the promise here is that -- the Gospel promise is that it is going to stop. That's the hope we have. We're here in this world right now. We undergo change and suffering. Our loved ones get sick and they die. We face that same reality. But that's not the last word either for us or for this world. The last word is the renewal that will come. And so the Holy Spirit, one of the things he also does in us is he keeps us in this confidence and in this hope that this is not the last word. The last word is that God will renew his creation. And this man from the Congregationalist church, I remember him smiling and saying: Well that's part of the Gospel that I love. That this world is going to be renewed. That God, you know, loves his creation. And that he's going to change it for the good. And so we couldn't agree on evolution as a theory of origin. But we could agree that the present situation is an evil situation. And that what good news it was for us to know that God was going to put an end to this cycle of death and decay and usher us into the eschaton, the new heavens, the new earth, where everything would be made good once again. Nick, I thank you for that scientific question. Because I think it really does focus upon Paul talking about the world of science, about what God is going to do to his creation itself.