No. 42. >> Hello, I am Eric. Dr. Schulz, it seems that there is some contradiction when you say that the keys are given to all believers instead of to just one person and then they are given to the pastors. Could you expound on that a little? >>DR. KLAUS DETLEV SCHULZ: Eric, I have particular concerns about this question insofar as it's somewhat difficult to answer. Because the reality here is in the life of the church, all Christians forgive one another. So we cannot deny a Christian the right to forgive another Christian. In fact, in the Lord's Prayer we pray: And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. So the keys, if you will, are used by every Christian. Martin Luther in the Smalcald Articles also speaks about the mutual consolation of brethren. This mutual consolation I understand as that activity that occurs amongst Christians. That they together with one another appease each other. There where harm has been done, they restore their relationships. We cannot deny that right for every Christian. However, I would like to add here, also, that the keys belong to the pastor, as well. And here the keyword I think is public. The word public here needs to be explained. Sometimes the pastor might not necessarily be public. That is, he might visit someone at the hospital and sit at the side of an individual. And he will forgive the sins of that individual. However, he does so publicly insofar as he's been given that authority to do so by the members. So that it is understood that the pastor is not doing something that he's not given the authority to do. Likewise, also, in a worship service when the pastor stands in front of its members, he usually says: I as an ordained and called service of Jesus Christ forgive you all your sins in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And in giving that forgiveness to the members, the members know here that they have transferred their authority of the keys to that individual. Now, your question indicates a certain dilemma. On the one hand the pastor has the keys for forgiveness. On the other hand, the members have it. But as I've said here clearly, the crucial word that is to be used that understands the ministry of the pastor is the public authority. And we need to realize that we give and have given a called minister such authority to do it on our behalf. Can the church remove the keys from that individual? First of all, it should not be done haphazardly. It is important that the church needs to realize that they have called a pastor. And such call is the one that Jesus Christ also intends to affirm. Afterall, in John 20 Verse 19 following he does give the keys to the disciples. And we know that that ministry continues in the ministry of the pastors. So the church needs to review each case very carefully as to whether the keys are implemented falsely. And wrongly. Such occasions can occur in the church where, for example, the pastor fails to do his duties, his ministerial duties. Or where, for example, he is involved in an adulterous relationship or a third reason could be that he teaches false doctrine. I think these are usually the three reasons why some pastor can be removed from his office. Why the authority to forgive others can be taken away from him. But such instances need to be carefully reviewed in view of the fact that today many members in the church seem to be getting rid of their pastors haphazardly by saying: Oh, their relationship just doesn't seem to match. Or their chemistry doesn't work out. On the basis of Scripture, it needs to be carefully evaluated what reasons are given and stated for placing or taking or removing a pastor from office. I want to add, also, here in regards to speaking about the keys of the church that in transferring them to the pastor, we also have a clear understanding of the ministry, the ranges of duty that a pastor is to perform. We know that many pastors today might be interested in political life in society. And get engaged therein. While in regards to the keys that are given to them, we might say that he should be very careful as to the way he extends his ministry into society. He might want to improve the concerns of this world. However, as we know, his ministry needs to implement the Gospel in the community that he serves. So the Office of the Keys I think already indicates that we need to divide the ministry, the jurisdiction of the pastor, from that of a politician. Separated from that of other people who are active in society. The key is to point to the crucial fact that the pastor in a congregation lives from the Gospel. And for that very reason, the pastor must always relate his ministry of bringing the Gospel to the people.