No. 41. >> My name is Nick, Dr. Schulz. I would like to revisit Scripture for a moment and ask you something. I'm curious after hearing you say that the word ekklesia occurs only a few times in the gospels, how important then are these passages for an understanding of the church? >>DR. KLAUS DETLEV SCHULZ: Yes, I have said that the term ekklesia is prevalent in the New Testament on a number of places -- in a number of places. But in the gospels itself, it is only occurring two times. In Matthew 16 and Matthew 18. And these passages are absolutely crucial to understand things about the church and how it runs its daily affairs. Let me explain. When we look at Matthew 16, we see there in Jesus asking the disciples, particularly of Peter here now: Who do you say the Son of God is? And Peter responds by saying: You are the Son -- you are Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus Christ then responds: On this confession, on this rock, should I say -- on this rock I will build my church. Over the history of the church, we have seen that this text has been interpreted in various ways. In particular, one, the Roman Catholic view. And on the other side, that of Martin Luther. What do these two views say? Well, it seems that the Roman Catholic Church has taken this text to explain the primacy of Peter. It has said that when Jesus Christ said: On this rock I will build my church, that they refer to Peter himself. And thereby, derive from it the primacy of Peter. Jesus Christ then continues and says: The keys of binding and loosing will be given to you. And the Roman Catholic Church, therefore, has said that the primacy of Peter has a lot to do with the position of the keys. First, let me relate to you the problem of this issue of the rock on which the church will be built. We know that the word for Peter in Greek is Petros. That means rock. Jesus Christ here in Greek, however, says: On this petra I will build my church. That means he uses now the feminine Greek word here. And the indication is, Luther says, that this word points to the confession of Peter. So that it says here: On this confession I will build my church. I think that makes a lot of sense if we add to this the idea that the church has Jesus Christ as his head. And without Jesus Christ, the church cannot exist. And the church lives by its very confession of saying: Jesus Christ is Lord, the Son of God. And the issue then here in this text also about the keys. It is very helpful to draw attention to Matthew 18. Because therein we can see ourself that Jesus Christ repeated the sentence of the binding and the loosing of the keys and referred that to the disciples themselves. This means that not only Peter, but also the other disciples, have been given authority to loose and to bind sins. I think that is very crucial for the understanding of the keys in the church today. Our understanding is that the keys have been given to the entire church and not to this or that particular person. When it comes to ministry, we need to explain clearly how these keys that belong to the church are then given to an individual. The church, it is said in our theology, confers the power of the keys to that individual that he then may implement them. But let me return first again -- or again to the text here that is referring to the keys in Matthew 18. We know that it does take away the primacy from Peter. We also see that in Galatians 2 apostle Paul rebuked Peter and told him that he does not clearly understand the Gospel. But focuses his entire ministry on the law. In fact, Peter probably did not quite understand how the doctrine of justification worked. Namely, that you are saved without works but through faith alone. In Matthew 18, there is reference being made to the way a person should be disciplined. You might recall in one of my earlier answers, I said that the church does not totally discard discipline. There might be those people in our midst who live in blatant sin. Those that are unrepentant of their sin. And the question now becomes: How should the church deal with such people? I think the text in Matthew 18 clearly identifies here a strategy of how one should deal with one another in the community, a congregation. Let me read to you what Matthew 18 says in regards to church discipline. There in Verse 15 following, it says this: If your brother sins against you, go and show him his faults just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. These words of Jesus Christ are very strong words. Because they ultimately say that if a person is remaining unrepentant in our fellowship, that he should be regarded as someone like we would do as a tax collector or a pagan. That is very difficult to say and to implement this in a congregation. But the point here is that should we have somebody who does not listen, who cannot be won over for what he had committed by actually repenting of it, it would be difficult to consider him a brother in our church. The strategy that is here provided gives us an indication that the keys that have been given to the pastor should be implemented very carefully. And not regarded as a stick to yield haphazardly. A pastor should also consult the elders as to what steps should be taken in regard to a person who is unrepentant. And these steps should be carefully reviewed so that the church is not unnecessarily harmed in the process. The nature of the sin that is mentioned here needs a further explanation. It is not just that sin that occurs that every sin -- every Christian commits. We know that we are sinners and saints at the same time. So the community always lives with the reality of sin in its midst. What we are talking here of is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Those that remain adamant in it and refuse to repent over it. In some cases it might occur that certain things are spoken public against another person. That his name is made into ill reputes and his reputation is led to be seen negatively in the community. Such public sin against another needs to be also addressed publicly. I think it is important that a pastor deals with such things by taking the Word publicly and saying to the people that this person has been wrongfully harmed by somebody else. It is a difficult one because in the Lord's commandments, the eighth commandment, we need to see carefully that the step taken best, the first step should I say, of making amends is one as the Lord suggests. Namely, to approach one another in private. That should be the one that is taken seriously. And only if things cannot be taken or improved from there in that situation, we should ensure that the steps are taken accordingly. The binding and loosing of keys, as we have spoken of here, is one that says basically that the pastor who applies them of binding and loosing is opening the gates of heaven for somebody. Wherever the sins are withheld, the forgiveness is withheld, there the doors heaven are shut. So the decision to bind someone's sin, that is not to forgive, is a very serious and grave decision that a pastor needs to take. And therefore, as I've suggested, it is necessary to consult with everyone, particularly with the elders, as to what steps should be taken. The reason why I point out to the Office of the Keys this much is because I see that the church lives off the Office of the Keys. Some say: How and with what activity should we identify the pastor with? I think it is that activity of the keys. The pastor is there to forgive the sins on behalf of all others. And you notice here that while we talk about the church, we have already entered the topic of ministry. But it is necessary to say that the church itself cannot exist on its own unless it has the fact of or the reality of forgiveness being administered in its midst. And therefore, the ministry here of binding and of loosing is very important and needs to be set in place. And the congregation's life should be structured in such a way that this activity of forgiveness can take place publicly in its midst.