No. 34. >> I believe that church discipline is a good idea. But I'm concerned about the reaction of some people. Once when I suggested the need for exercising church discipline with a particular member, I was not surprised when one of my leaders worried aloud that excommunication is being harsh, unloving and may actually drive people away from Christ. How would you answer these feelings? I have to admit that excommunication looks a lot like punishment. What exactly is the purpose of practicing church discipline? And how can it have a positive feel for both the principles and both the rest of the congregations members? >>DR. JOEL D. BIERMANN: Again, David, you're asking a very good question. And a very relevant one. The reaction that many people have against church discipline is: Oh, that's harsh. Oh, that's unloving. Aren't we supposed to be in the Gospel? Doesn't Christ love people? Christ never drove anyone away. And what we are confusing again is the two realms and the two kinds of righteousness. The Gospel needs to be proclaimed to forgiven people. But if people are not yet forgiven, they need to be killed by the law. And the law needs to be delivered. And the law needs to be the standard of how we are to live. So we need to uphold the law even as we proclaim the Gospel. So I guess I would say to that person if we drive somebody away with our hard stand challenging them to obey God's will, maybe that's better than coddling them in their sin and giving them the impression that it doesn't matter and that God doesn't care about this. Because then what we're doing is we are allowing sin. And we're creating an atmosphere that enhances a licentious attitude and promotes antinomianism and gives people the impression that it really doesn't matter what you do or how you love, God doesn't care, he just loves you anyway. And while there's a little bit of truth to that because yeah God receives anybody who turns in repentance, it's a flat-out lie. Because it gives the impression that how you live doesn't matter. And there are no rules and no regulations. Do what you want. So I guess I would suggest that if we end up driving somebody away because of the law, maybe that's appropriate. Maybe we need to in some situations. Now, you also wondered about how you can give maybe a more positive feel to church discipline and to excommunication. And I guess I smile a little bit when I think about that. Because I don't know how you can do that. The law, the Bible tells us, always produces wrath. And it's just kind of the nature of the thing that when you confront somebody with their sin, they don't usually get all excited about it. I mean, if you go to somebody and say: Brother, I'm concerned. I'm concerned about the choices you're making regarding your marriage. You're doing the wrong thing. Rarely will somebody say: Thank you so much for pointing my sin out. I really appreciate that. What a great guy you are. That's not going to be the first reaction. The first reaction is going to be indignant, justification, defensive. They might turn around and attack you. We've been down the road. We know how it goes. Now, we pray that the Spirit will work and that your words of confrontation will hit home and take seed and take root and grow and flourish to the point where the person says: Oh, man. There's truth to that. And I can see it now. And then, then the glorious happens where they are broken. They are crushed. And they admit their sin. And they come back to you and say: Man, I was rotten to you. I reacted badly. I can see how hard it was for you to come and tell me. You told me. You did the right thing. And you're right. I'm turning from this sin. That's what it's all about. And that's the good news. Now, that's positive. And that's encouraging. And that brings joy and hope to us all. But the actual task of confronting someone with a sin is never easy. Never pleasant. And never a good time. I've been there myself many times. You dread it. You think of everything -- every possible excuse not to do it. And unfortunately we find them. And I think that's the only reasons why we don't practice church discipline as much as we should because we really get scared about the possibilities. And we are not relishing the idea of having the conversation. And we're terrified about what might happen and how the offense might be taken and how people might react. So we end up making bad choices. We end up not loving people enough to confront them with a sin. It's not easy. And it's not fun. And I don't really know that there's a positive way to practice church discipline. Any more than there's a positive way to confront somebody with their sin. It's not just a fun thing. Sin never is. That's the nature of it. But it doesn't mean we don't do it. We need to do it because that's what God called us to do. We need to do it because that's what shepherds do when they are showing love and caring for people.