No. 18. >> Nick, I'm glad you're positive about our conversation. But I'm sorry; all of this talk about the law and ethical systems makes me really uncomfortable. I've always thought that focusing on ethics, virtues, self improvement, it's actually dangerous to faith. Especially for Lutherans. Since we emphasize justification by grace through faith alone. Isn't this talk about ethics sliding back into works righteousness? Or at least into self-centeredness? >>DR. JOEL D. BIERMANN: Oh, David, you are a good man. You are a good Lutheran. And you're making Cleveland proud. I did my vicarage in Parma. So I have a soft place in my heart for Cleveland and the good thinking that goes on up there. And you're very right. If we get carried away with talking too much ethics, too much law, we could become -- easily we can become absorbed with these things and become self absorbed. And too much focus on this, too much preoccupation with this, can lead to a self absorption and even kind of an egocentric thing of: What do I need to do? What do I need to do? That's not good. Now, the fact that zeroing in on the law and thinking about ethical behavior and thinking about standards of right and wrong can potentially lead into works righteousness and can lead into some sort of self absorption does not mean that we should ignore. And I have seen I guess in my own years of experience, I think that tends to be more the Lutheran temptation. I don't see too many Lutherans that are being tempted to get sucked into works righteousness. We are too well educated and we know too well the dangers of that. What I do see, though, is kind of the other extreme. I see Lutherans sliding into sort of a licentious antinomian attitude. And licentious, of course, means no rules. Free to do what you want. You have a license to do whatever you like. And antinomianism, there's your big $20 word for the day, which simply means ***antinomus or being opposed to the law. Fighting against the law. You have no use for the law. Antinomianism and licentiousness I think is pretty well established in our churches where people don't think the law has anything to say to them because: I'm in the Gospel. I can do what I want. That's nonsense. Yes, you're in the Gospel. You don't get to do what you want. The law is still normative. God's will still applies. So while we need to be careful that we don't become obsessed with law discussions and obsessed with ethical systems and trying to use the natural law to solve every problem, you can't. We also have to be careful we don't ignore these things. So like so many things in Lutheran theology, you need to hold onto a tight tension and get a balance here. We don't ignore the law. We don't become obsessed with the law. And an obsession with the law that leads to a works righteousness or even an obsession of the law where you become self absorbed and are always naval-gazing, wondering what you should do next, what's right for you to do, that's not Lutheran freedom. That's not what Luther ever wanted. Luther envisioned people simply living out there in the world. Living in their vocations. Doing what God has given them to do. And rejoicing in the freedom they have to serve their neighbor according to God's law. Part of the problem here is the definition of freedom. In America we define freedom as freedom from. No restraints. Do what we want. In actuality the best definition of Scripturally is freedom for. Freedom to do what God has given you to do. Freedom for service. Freedom for keeping the law. And when you keep the law and live the way God has designed you to live as a human being, then you really experience freedom. Because now you really are doing what God created you to do. And it's a wonderful freeing experience. And as long as you're fighting against God's law, I would say Paul calls that slavery. Because you have a slave. So I appreciate your concern, David. Let's not get hung up on the law and carried away with this. But if we put the context kind of around this whole thing, we begin to realize that maybe we need to spend a little more time talking about the law and about ethics as Lutherans. Because perhaps we've given it a little bit short shrift and haven't really paid attention to it maybe as much as we should. And maybe the danger is not so much works righteousness. But maybe the real danger is the antinomianism and the licentiousness that works on the other side. Either one of them can get us. In the Formula of Concord, it warned against works righteousness. But it also warned against what they called the epicurean delusion. Or the idea that you can live how you want. And do what you want. Because it doesn't matter because you have forgiveness. Well, that's dead wrong, too. And you need to be sensitive and ask yourself the question: In my congregation, what's the real danger? Do I have people who are sliding into works righteousness or people who are sliding off into antinomianism? You probably have some on either side. But pay attention to what the real concerns are among your people.