ROUGHLY EDITED COPY CUENet AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION DOGMATICS 2 LESSON 93 Captioning Provided By: Caption First, Inc. 10 E. 22nd Street Suite 304 Lombard, IL 60148 800-825-5234 *** This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. *** >> Dr. Scaer and Dr. Maxwell, thank you for this course. It has been very helpful. Now, at the end can I ask the two of you to comment on a few of the ways in which you see an intersection between Christology and Article IV of the Confession? >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Well, Nick, your question I think is helpful at the end of the course because I don't know about you, but I felt a little guilty that we split the thing in two. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: Right. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Whereas I think we both agree that Christology and justification go together and that you can't split them in two. And let me start, Nick, by giving you some historical perspective on this question. We talked in both sections of the course about two different heresies. One is Nostorianism in which the two natures in Christ operate practically as independent subjects. So the divine nature does the miracles and then the human nature of Christ does the suffering. So it really sounds like there's two of him. And then we also talked about the Pelagian heresy in which you really don't have any kind of notion of grace but rather, human beings themselves are responsible for accruing the merit that gets them into heaven. Now, the comment I want to make about these two heresies is that in the Fifth and Sixth Centuries, it was a very common opinion of the opponents of the heretics, that is the Orthodox side, that these two heresies are fundamentally related. And they are related in this way, that in each case you have an independent human actor, whether that's the human nature of Christ acting independently from the divine nature or whether that's humanity or human beings in general in the case of Palegian acting on their own independently from God. And you have humanity acting independently from God and accruing merit without God's help. And it was commonly thought that these two heresies were fundamentally related and almost two sides of the same coin. And what it boils down to is the issue of: How does God relate to humanity? Does God open up this space in which humanity is autonomous and operates on its own or does God actually give us everything that we are and have? And I would say that that's the relation between Christology and salvation. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: In listening to your lecture, you spoke about that Christianity can be preached without mentioning faith. And we could also add that Christianity could be preached without mentioning justification. Because for centuries, this particular formula was not a very well known formula. And then we get into the Reformation question in which it is said that justification by grace through faith is the central article. And when you make a statement which is so absolute as that kind of a statement, you had better in some way couch it in with other references. There has to be some kind of introduction and prelude to that thinking. Because in the last century, Rudolph Boltman did offer a Christianity which was by justification by grace through faith. But it did not require any necessary Christology. In fact, Rudolph Boltman thought that the miraculous references to Jesus in the gospels were mythological, taken over from the pagan world. And I appreciated what you had to say. Because justification takes place. Even though we don't use the word justification, even if we don't use the word grace and even though we don't use the word faith, justification takes place when the -- when Jesus Christ is preached, when he is preached as the redeemer from sins and that he's been resurrected from the dead. Where this really can become problematic I think for Lutheran preachers is that in giving a discourse on justification, which is absolutely correct and absolutely Orthodox, they may actually think that they have preached the Gospel. And one of the noteworthy things I think in the gospels in the preaching of Jesus is that these technical terms are not given nor are they any part of anybody coming to faith. Where the concept -- the theological concepts, where they come into existence is in the writings of St. Paul. So justification is a reflection of what our faith is. I think one advantage that the Lutherans have with justification is that this particular doctrine in some way or another actually describes the human condition. Now, I'm not speaking in a religious way or in a theological way or from the perspective of faith. But the Lutheran doctrine of justification requires that the individual who hears the message of God knows that before God, he is absolutely nothing. Even if he doesn't believe in a God, he knows that within himself, he's not what he should be. Every human being is continually in the state of justifying himself. Justifying himself maybe in different ways that "Everything I do is okay" or "The bad things I do are really not all that significant." Or maybe in even less theological terms: What's my purpose here in life? I have a good purpose. So justification explains the inner emotions I don't want to say of all human beings. That's an exaggeration. But it comes pretty close to being a common experience. And I think that's the great attraction of the Lutheran doctrine of justification. However, as you said and I certainly agree with you, the substance of justification is not itself. The substance of justification is Jesus Christ. And this can take place even when the person is not reflecting on it. Because if we say that justification, the experience of justification, which is a self reflecting experience, belongs to the act of justification itself, then we would have a difficult time explaining why or how infants and children could be justified. And certainly throughout the -- all of the centuries there's been thousands and millions of Christians who did not engage in this kind of self reflection. In fact, they might have even had false reflections of what was going on. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Well, I think that point is really helpful in a question that I really struggled with for a long time. And that is that you will hear Catholics or Orthodox -- Eastern Orthodox people say that no one ever believed in the doctrine of justification until Luther. And so -- and I think even Lutherans talk this way sometimes, that, you know, it was all darkness as soon as the Apostles died and then until Luther. And then when Luther shows up, now we have the Gospel. And the church somehow didn't have the Gospel before. But I think your point about the fact that justification is not identical with reflection on the doctrine is helpful in -- because the church always had the gospels. They always had the preaching of Christ. Even if they are reflecting on it in ways that don't address the same questions that Luther addressed in the 16th Century. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: And also the way people respond when they reflect on these things. One has to be very cautious in responding to this. Because they may understand words in a different way than we do. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Right. Well, especially -- I think that Luther does tend to redefine words like grace and faith as I talked about in my portion of the course that aren't necessarily the same definitions that Roman Catholic theology uses. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: Well, I think this is one of the problems that Luther had with James. Because in your course of study, you're going to find out that good Lutherans are going point to out that Luther did not accept the epistle of James because what he thought was a false doctrine of justification. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Uh-huh. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: And Lutherans certainly are influenced by conservative Christians and are very reluctant to get rid of the epistle of James. But they don't solve the problem. And this double definition of justification and faith and works I think is right here in the New Testament itself. And I would put James and Jesus in the same category. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Yes. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: There are two justifications. There's the justification that I have within myself. And there's the justification that other people see in me. Let me give you this example: Suppose I am accused of a crime. And I know that I in no way was guilty of it. I was no way a participant in it. I was no way there. So I have a sense of internal justification. I know myself to be innocent. However, if I am accused, my feeling of justification is not going to solve the situation. I'm going to have to go to a lawyer. I'm going to have to go to -- I'm going to be taken to court. And in the eyes of the court, in the eyes of the jury, I'm going to have to prove myself to be right. Whether we like it or not we're guilty until we're proven innocent. That's what the word righteous means. And -- but within a Christian context, we -- from St. Paul, the concern -- and that's also Luther's concern, too. And that is Paul and Luther are not identical. But there's an internal question here of whether I please God enough. And of course the word of the Gospel says you have been accepted in Christ. But then there's -- then there's the final scene, the final judgement scene. And judgement, the final judgement, is a large item in the preaching of Jesus and also John the Baptist. That's the eschatological reference. The judgement is coming right now. And in the final judgement scene of the sheep and the goats, which really is a justification -- I won't say it's a parable because it's not a parable. The language is parabolic. It's something that's a real thing. It's in the future. Jesus divides the sheep and the goats. And both the sheep and the goats have the question of why they are in this condition. And Jesus says to the sheep who don't seem to be aware of any problem that in doing the good things to other people, they did it unto him. And over against the goats, they have performed no in works at all. That people who are condemned have no works to show that they are really in the church. And this is really a justification scene. It's a justification scene so that other people can know it. Or another example: I can tell you that I'm musical. But if I can't play the piano -- and I think this is what -- I think James is very close to Jesus. Because he says, "I will show you my faith by my works." "If you think that I'm not a Christian, let's look and see what I've done." But the works never convince the Christian himself. I think that is something which is really problematic. And I think it's a danger in all of Christendom. And it's also a danger in Lutheranism. How do I know I'm a Christian? What's my assurance of justification? Well, I'm saved by grace through faith. Good. "Hey, but look at all of the wonderful things I've done." If we do that, in that moment, faith is lost. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Because the sheep don't even know what they've done in Matthew 25. Now, in regard to this double definition of justification, I ran across a quote in First Clement. First Clement is a very early church father. I believe Clement of Rome is who I'm talking about. 95 AD is about the time when he wrote this. And you can actually see both definitions in the same document where he will say sort of along Pauline lines "Let us" -- that we are justified not by anything we do in holiness of heart but only by grace. Or I forget exactly how the quote goes. But it sounds very Pauline. But then two pages later he will say, "Let us be justified by our works and not our words." So that would be more the James sense of justification is how you show your righteousness. You're going to show it by what you do, not just by empty boosting, I think that two different definitions show up -- that gets appropriated by -- at least the earlier fathers seem to have both. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: Rather than using the word definitions, I would use the word perspectives on the same thing. Because getting back to this other analogy, I know I'm musical. Now, when I sit down and I play the piano, that's a different -- not a different type of musical ability. It's the ability demonstrating itself. So we don't want to speak about two different kinds of righteousness. But I think the Lutherans have an advantage from the doctrine of justification in preaching because it approaches its hearers in a way in which they also already know that this is the case. I'm not a pastor of a congregation now, just as you're not a pastor of a congregation now. So we get to sit in the church. And I generally sit up in the front in one of the first five rows. And when there's a baptismal party, they sit just opposite the aisle. And I'm always interested in why people don't believe. Maybe that's a perverse psycho thing. I think the great miracle is not that we believe. But the great miracle is that some people don't believe. That's the parable that Jesus told of the sower. That really it's a concentration on all of unbelief. And my observation is that when the pastor is speaking about the human condition, whether they gamble or whether they are lazy or whatever it is, I've noticed that the people are extremely attentive. You can just tell. You can tell when people are listening. When he begins to preach about Christ and delivering the Gospel, a kind of blank sheet comes over their face to give the appearance they are not really getting the message. The point that I'm making with justification which is the law -- which is the law and the Gospel, that's what bridges it, the Lutheran understanding of the law corresponds to what we human beings know about ourselves. We already know this. And there's really nothing more selfish than finding out things about yourself. So that has a great attraction. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: Now, do you think that that's -- part of that is that pastors tend to say the Gospel the same way the same Sunday? That wouldn't really apply to unbelievers necessarily because they wouldn't necessarily know that. I'm thinking of the people that go to church every Sunday and they tune out because it's the same way of saying it. Like Jesus died for you. And they know that's coming. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: Well, I think what you said is absolutely one -- as strange as it might seem, it used to be one of the biggest obstacles to actually accomplishing justification in the hearing of the congregation is substituting the cliche for the proclamation. And I think it would be a very good discipline when preparing a sermon after the -- after you put the sermon down on paper to go through the manuscript and to remove the cliches. And then you get the emphasis in the preaching of the Gospel and justification. It's for you. So you know you have to emphasize the for you. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: So what would some of the other cliches be besides Jesus died for you? >> DR. DAVID SCAER: Well, a cliche would involve where you actually do not use the narrative material which is provided in the Gospel in which you are preaching. Because in preaching, the reader has to come to the conclusion or the feeling that he is part of the pericope. That actually Jesus is involving him in this situation. So in a given pericope, he might find -- to be absolutely drastic, he might find himself to be in a position of Herod, this person who doesn't like children. A person who wants to be an obstacle to the Gospel. Or in the parable of the sower, that he really is the dry ground and he is the ground in which he -- in which the seed springs up for a while. And it's certainly from the Sermon on the Mount, that a person would be overtaken by riches. And I'm not so sure that we always have to use -- see, the major cliche is the word -- are the words "for you." So I'll give you a cliche: Christ died for me and for you. He rose for me and for you. And somehow the minister gives the appearance that he's on the same level as the people so he will do it. I think a lot of this is just filler. I'm not so sure we have to use the for you and the for me. My wife worked for a well-to-do family as a nurse. And they were getting rid of their Cadillac at $2,000. I didn't have to see the "for you" after the $2,000. I was over there with a checkbook. And so in the proclamation of Christ himself, the person is being -- is actually being justified. Something is happening to him before he realizes that it's happening to him. And where the doctrine of justification serves its really major purpose is when we begin to reflect upon ourselves in thinking that we've accomplished something, then you have to say we are justified by grace through faith without works. Then it's -- it's kind of a law -- the doctrine of justification is kind of a law-Gospel statement. It's not a reminder. But it's a kind of edging, "Hey, you should not be looking at yourself. You should be looking outward." And I appreciated that reference to Clement. That in one sense he said, "Yes, we're justified by Christ" and so forth. And then he says, "You're not justified by works. You're not just justified by saying the Creed. You're justified by doing something." And if you go into James, it says, you know, "Wasn't Abraham justified when he offered up his son?" Well, let's look at it like this: Abraham could have said, "I believe in all of the promises of God, hence, I'm justified." Well, I don't know that he believes. He could be a liar. How do I know that? But when he took the ultimate step of sacrificing his own son, he believed in what -- the promises of God. And he even believed in the resurrection. Because by sacrificing his son, he acknowledged that God had given him this son. And if God took away this son, God could give him back his son. And so when you speak about justification, some of the greatest saints, I think we clergymen, we preachers, I don't think we're the great saints. We see the great saints in our congregation who really take the word of God and Christ seriously. And they stedfastly go through some of the most difficult situations in life. That is the living proof and evidences of justification. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: And Abraham in Genesis 22, when he actually does -- he's about to go through with it, the angel of the Lord says, "Now I know you fear God." So it's that kind of public recognition here is how you know he was going to go through with it. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: Well, one of the critiques which is frequently leveled against Lutheranism is a kind of quietism. I don't want to use the term passivism. And that is -- at least it's a character of us that at least we put so much emphasis on justification by grace through faith that it becomes the one thing. And that works are not necessary. I think that has to be understood. I think this has to be understood very carefully. Because there's no proclamation of Christ which at the same time doesn't bring forth results in a person's life. But at the same time we can't speak about the results apart from the person of Christ. Because then we get into your Nostorium reference. >> DR. DAVID MAXWELL: That's right. >> DR. DAVID SCAER: That the people are out their on their own pedaling their own bikes. God gave them the bike and now they have to pedal it. And when you say that justification by grace through faith is the major article of Christianity, it is the major article of Christianity within the Reformation settling in. Which another alternative was being offered by the Roman -- by the Roman church. And of course we actually discover as pastors many Roman Catholics who actually hold to the Lutheran doctrine of justification, we find out when discussing it with them that they really -- even though they have a different articulation -- I think you have to be very careful, too. Because when we're dealing with death in the congregation, a widow might say at the coffin of her deceased husband, "Oh, John was such a good man. He did so many wonderful things. He's certainly in heaven." And I guess the temptation at that time is to become excessively Lutheran and say, "No, we're not saved" -- "John was not saved by works, by what he did. But he was saved by grace through faith." Maybe she's just speaking in a different plain. And what are you going to do with the passage in the book of Revelation? "Blessed are those who die in the Lord and their works do follow them." One of the proofs for me of eternal life -- and it may not be absolutely right. But I have known in my life a lot of wonderful people. And I just cannot believe that these people have simply disappeared. What they said was worthwhile remembering. What they did is a tribute to themselves. They lived through the most difficult situations. And if we look at the book of Hebrews, that's what the book of Hebrews says precisely. They point out people being tortured and burned and under the most difficult circumstances. That is one of the proofs, these people -- we know these people are justified. Sometimes Lutherans say, "We really don't know who Christians are because we believe in the invisible church. I think we have to be a little cautious with that. The idea that they are martyrs. And there are martyrs in the home. There's the wife that may be dealing with an abusive husband and follows in the path of Christ and brings up her children. There are saints all over the place. And these all are tributes to the doctrine of justification. *** This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. ***