No. 13. >> May I take my question to another level? Since Christians are ruled by the Gospel and not the law, I'm curious to understand what value there is in trying to teach people about natural law. I've heard some people say that the natural law provides the bridge for discussions between Christians and non-Christians. Do you think this would work and, if so, what would it look like? >>DR. JOEL D. BIERMANN: All right, Eric, you're opening up all kinds of issues here. And I'm going to try to address them. Let me take the bridge thing first. You said can the natural law serve as a bridge between Christians and non-Christians? Yeah, it might. And it might serve as kind of a common denominator that we can use as we're working through discussions. And it has some value in that way. Roman Catholicism has done a lot with this over the years. In fact, to be honest, Roman Catholic theology has paid a lot more attention to natural law and the rule of law in the world and have done a lot more work on this than we have. I think we as Lutherans have tended to look at the law as somehow suspect. As not worthy of our attention. Because we're Gospel people. So we sort of dismiss the law as being irrelevant. Whereas, Romans paid more attention with it and done better work with their natural law application to the world around them sort of a thing it. So you can use natural law to that -- a little bit that way. But don't get carried away with it. Because you see, the problem is, like I said natural law only goes so far. You can't go into the world today and say: Hey, you all know killing is wrong. And people say: Yeah. You say: Therefore, abortion is wrong. And they'll say: No, not so fast. Is the baby -- is it really a baby yet? And you get all the kinds of discussions going on. So natural law will help as a beginning point. And we can make an appeals to it MARK. But don't assume that just because you play the natural law card, it's kind of like you're going to trump everything going on. That doesn't work. Because we've got so many problems in the world today with emotivism and situationism and everything else where people are creating their own ethical systems which allow them to sort of dodge and get away from natural law. And it's implications. So you might make some head way in trying to make an appeal to natural law. But you're not going to win every argument that way. Now, you made another point which has got me even more interested. And I want to speak to that. You made the point kind of in passing that Christians are ruled by the Gospel, not by the law, so what value is there in talking about the law. And I want to challenge that on this level: I don't think I would agree that Christians are ruled by the Gospel. The very idea of being ruled by Gospel is really kind of oxymoronic. Because the Gospel is that Word of forgiveness from God. It's the Word that says: You have my grace. And when you hear Gospel, the only thing you do is you say: Whoa, that blows me away to be so forgiven and have that wonderful forgiveness that God gives me. I don't earn it. I don't deserve it. I've got it. I've got it. That's Gospel. And the Word of the Gospel must always be nothing more than the pure declaration of what Christ has done for you that forgives your sin. And there's no obligation left. You're simply forgiven. That's the Word of the Gospel. The Gospel then does not trump or overcome the law in that it sort of like wipes it out. And that's a common understanding that I think is very wrong. That it's somehow: Now that I'm in the Gospel, I don't need the law. That's dead wrong. Think about it this way: Let's the go back to our vertical relationship and our horizontal relationship. If the Gospel makes me right in my relationship with God and sets things right between me and my Creator so I have this forgiveness, I know where I stand. Now what do I do? Do I say: Cool, I'm forgiven. I can do what I want. Not at all. In fact, what happens is God gives me his forgiveness, redeems me, declares me forgiven so that I can be turned back into the left hand realm where the people are waiting for me to serve them. I'm now free to serve in the left hand. Because I don't have to earn God's forgiveness in the left hand. It's already been given to me. So now that I've got complete full forgiveness, I have tons of free time to get busy in the left hand simply serving my neighbor. Because that's what God put me here to do. I'm a creature. My neighbor has needs. I go out and I meet them. And what guides me and directs me when I'm in the left hand taking care of my neighbor? It's God's will. The law. God's will for my life. What does God want me to do? Meet my neighbor's needs. Take care of him. Live uprightly. Promote justice. That's law stuff. It's very appropriate in the left hand realm. Do you somehow earn God's favor by doing it? No. Do you get more forgiveness for doing it? No. Do you get better gifts from God? No. That's not the point. The point is my neighbor needs me to do these things. I'm a creature. I get out in the left hand realm and I do my left hand stuff serving my neighbor's needs, taking care of him. And the law is my guide. Third use of the law, really critically important here, is the law simply shows me what God wants me to do. And it's not like the third use of the law or the third function is some sort of new law that God gives, a secret list that he hands to Christians. It's just the same will of God for his creatures. It's the same will of God that's always been there built into the creation. And now you as a Christian who are tuned into God's will and want to do God's will are going to pay more attention to that. And work even harder at doing the things God has given you to do for the sake of neighbor. Not to earn brownie points with God. Not to get in good with God. But simply because your neighbor needs them. And because God has put you there to do what the neighbor needs. You see, this is why historically Luther had no use for monasteries. And you say: Well, it's because people are trying to earn forgiveness and trying to earn salvation. That's only the tip of the iceberg. Luther went after the monasteries, yes, because they were teaching false doctrine and works righteousness. But his biggest gripe against the monasteries -- and you get this -- it comes through all through the Book of Concord and all through Luther's writings -- his biggest gripe against the monasteries is it's telling people that they are being good creatures and serving best when they escape from the world so they can pray all day. And Luther said: That's dead wrong. Because the monk who runs away from the world and hides in the monastery is actually neglecting his responsibilities out there in the world where he needs to be going and serving. And he needs to get back in the world doing what God has put him here to do. Taking care of the creation. So in other words, we are declared forgiven, freed before God, freed from the burden of keeping the law to try to earn salvation. Simply given that gift of forgiveness. So that we can get back in the world. And do what God has given us to do. Check it out. Luther talks about this in the Large Catechism right before he talks about the Creed. And where he wraps up the discussion of the Creed, he actually says God gives us the Gospel so that we can go out and keep the law. That's rather unusual talk for most Lutherans to hear. But it's very Lutheran. And if you had the two realms right, it makes perfect sense. We have righteousness before God. God's gift to us. Freeing me now to live as a creature in this world. Serving those around me. Doing what God has given me to do. It's very appropriate. And a very right way of thinking about it.